The idea for this thread came about from the Bill Frisell thread I have linked here.
Let this be a place for us to talk about the strangeness ( and wonder if you like ) that is John Zorn.
Gregg and I have had many an email exchange about Zorn and we agree and disagree about him.
With regard to what has already been said on the Frisell thread and to get the conversational juices flowing, here is what I think:
- To me, Masada is the best thing John Zorn has ever done. It seems like an extension of Ornette Coleman's quartets of the 60's and the Jewish flavour is one of its strongest points and so is Joey Baron.
- With the regard to Fred's comment on William Parker as compared with Zorn :"William Parker, even though his roots are also in earlier decades, looks like he'll leave a more substantial musical legacy. " I totally agree...Parker seems to be more connected with meaning than Zorn and perhaps he should be the next candidate for the genius grant.
- Other than finding it plain awful, I don't see Zorn's Naked City project as anything more than a rebellious wall of sound. Like Fred, I do not believe generations looking back on music though the 80's, 90's and 2000's onwards will to Naked City as an essential peice of "artwork". I will not at least.
- Does Zorn deserve the genius status? I am not sure. It would depend who is doing the judging and what characteristics are being judged as genius. Myself, I see him as mainly experimental and can do without hearing most of his "music". <-- perhaps a cheap sentence but I have said it, and particularly mean the last half of it.
59 comments:
Yes, we do agree and disagree Kevin, that's for sure. Before I forget though, I am with Fred on recent Ornette.
Agree- Masada is his pinnacle, 'Acoustic Masada', that is. Those 4 guys together are outstanding no matter what. I also more or less agree that Parker has more meaning, but only because he wants to, it's the way he is. That said, to write Zorn off like that is wrong. Zorn is a reactionary AND a visionary and comparing him to someone like Parker isn't a good idea, there are too many differnces and too large a gulf between their respective perspectives. It's like looking at post 1963 Coltrane and saying 'he is more spiritual that George Coleman'. Yeah so? That's Coltrane, not Coleman.
Zorn is funny. Sometimes this can be interpreted as 'not meaningful', though I'm not saying you guys see it as that. Look at 'Spy vs. Spy'. That is HILARIOUS, I love it. Is it deep and meaningful? Not so much, but it is funny as hell and to me, enjoyable to listen to. You don't always have to be trying to prove everything or have something be intentionally deep and meaningful for it to be profound. The game pieces too. Sometimes Zorn is about the process and the act, rather than the outcome, sometimes making the outcome not completely listenable. This is in part where Zorn's genius lies. The construction and realisation of what he has in his head is important, sometimes moreso, than what the result is. He does not always care what it SOUNDS like, only what it IS and how it got there in the first place. He cares about the principle of the thing. We can all learn alot from this perspective.
Disagree- Naked City. I love it. Is it deep and meaningful? Not all of it. It's a philosophy, a concept, it doesn't HAVE to be! It is what it is, he is doing a certain thing and I can see how some wouldn't like it. Again though, I think it's wrong to attempt to ascribe meaning to something of Zorn's where there isn't any from him, where he is not saying something other than what it is. Maybe the reason we all agree that Masada is the greatest is because there he really IS saying something deep and meaningful.
Zorn has changed modern improv music and even Jazz (to those who are smart enough to pay attention) because of his wackyness and inventive ideas. It isn't HIS fault that he has as many little nutswinger fans as an aging Motley Crue, and that they are daft enough (or bias enough) to just love all of his stuff flatly, without question. I certainly don't, but know what he is and what is capable of doing. Many Zorn detractors hold this against him. Stop that! He IS a reactionary and visionary, he is doing his own thing and that is what's important to him.
There is a fine line between weirdo and eccentric, they are often two different ways of looking at the same thing.
Some people look at Warhol and say 'that is crap, it's a soup can'. Others say stuff like 'it's symbolic of Pop culture and the importance of branding and everyday objects and icons'. Others still look at it and go 'ha ha, YEAH, nice...a SOUP CAN!!......' Who is right? Who cares.
G
I am not writing off John Zorn as an influence on the music. I am sure he has had a lot of influence on people; one only needs to look at the roster of musicians that hand around him to understand that.
Another clarification, I make no mistake in assuming John Zorn is going out there to do something meaningful ( which is to say something that resonates with something deeper or higher or... ). It seems his main interests are reactionism ( <-- new word I guess ), fun, humour, craziness, I can't think of any more, etc. I agree that mainly his music is reactionary and visionary I suppose in that he has his own vision on doing it. To add to that, I do think that there are projects that are closer to his heart than others and I believe acoustic Masada is one of those.
My main point, am I interested in music that is reactionary and rebellious: not at all. It might have sounds that are pleasing, but it is not ultimately valuable to me ( now that I am not 18 anymore ).
Finally, I am not saying in any way that I like all of William Parker's music or that I look to him for "spirtual" inspiration ( not that you were saying that Gregg ). I have had the pleasure of interviewing him and being with him in a workshop and while I resonate with a lot of what he says, I do not agree with all of it. You also have a great point Greg, that Parker and Zorn cannot be compared just like Coltrane and Coleman. However, Parker is a more desirable alternative for me than Zorn. One of the most desirable traits of Parker is that I do not see him being a rebel...I may be wrong about that.
...oh, and zorn seems to be interested in interesting sound structures/harmonies.
He is a lot better at saying what he is interested in, particularly in that "Bookshelf in the Sky" documentary, which I found myself getting rather turned off him, more than I already had been.
Kevin,
Riiiight, now I remember our conversations about Zorn! You're not for the reactionary/rebellion, wheras I am, in a nutshell=)
G
I'm enjoying watching you two playing ping-pong over Zorn - I hardly need to contribute at the moment!!!
Some of the best gigs I've ever seen have involved Zorn - duo with Milford Graves, Masada, Bobby Previte's 'Euclid's Nightmare'. I'm on his side, but I hardly ever bother to listen to his records anymore. When I do they sound a bit flat. I'm with Gregg as far as the humour goes - Spy vs. Spy is just so funny! Is that enough? Apart from Absinthe and Kristallnacht, I tend to find myself wanting more substance from his output.
I think my comparison to Tarrantino is pertinent. He's got the right references, knows his history, is technically awesome, the fan extraordinaire. But is he too 'knowing', too arch? A guy you'd love to sit down and talk to about movies/music in a pub for an evening, a breath of fresh air compared to the mainstream. When it comes to that one definitive recording that says 'genius', lacking I'd say.
By nature I'm a reactionary like Zorn, and wherever I find myself I seem to place myself in oppositon to whatever it is I'm in amongst. If this discussion was about the jazz agent provocateur par exemplis, Zorn would sweep the floor. What concerns me more though is how 'extra musical' much of his appeal seems to be.
William Parker is definitely the underdog, siding with the free-jazz tradition. Evaluated purely in musical terms, only Masada really compares to his best recordings. Parker will never be able to compete with Zorn as the man who sticks two fingers up to the establishement, but he's doing his thing by necessity, as opposed to Zorn's need for posture/reaction. I hear more musical integrity in Parker than Zorn, but would always defend both for taking the radical stances that they take. That's also why I prefer to call Zorn the great 'ideas' man, before anything else.
Is Zorn any less valid for that? No, the philosophy behind Zorn is vital. But when it comes to music for music's sake, I'll side wih Parker. A false choice perhaps, but still a distinction.
Just a couple comments on Fred's comments.
What do you mean by 'extra musical'? I think it's all the same thing, Zorn would not be Zorn if he were any other way.
Also, maybe it's just me because I like him but although I agree that Masada is his best, there are so many other peaks to his career that neither of you have mentioned, like 'The Big Gundown','Spillane/Godard' and 'Cobra' (the orginal, game piece or not,is great), not to mention the vast amount of film music and other stuff he's done, and there is a TON.
Zorn's genius lies in his creativity, his ideas and how he executes them, combined with his vision (i.e. 'Spillane') and attitude (the latter propelling him to actually Do this stuff). Like them or not, the idea of the game piece is brilliant. Even our man (well, not yours Kevin!) Derek Bailey has a chapter on Zorn in 'Improvisation'.
I don't necessarily agree Zorn is primarily looking for reaction. I think he is doing his thing because he has to as much as Parker. Most people who like Masada or News for Lulu are probably not into 'Painkiller'. But I really don't think Zorn cares. I think he's happy he's the reactionary and likes that position, but I think he's just doing what he wants to do and doesn't really care. Have you guys BEEN to a Masada show? Trust me, the audience comes second to the players and the art=)
G
Oh yeah, do I even NEED to say I am also a reactionary/rebel? I didn't think so...
And how about someone I DON'T love for the next thread, there are so many...
G
By 'extra-musical' I was thinking of his style and attitude - call it philosophy.
Presentation - the way he wraps his music up and gives it another dimension not directly related to the music 'as played'. Whatever he does, no matter how straight the project, everybodty expects him to be the enfant terrible and automatically look for something extra.
Why else would the News For Lulu sessions be re-issued so many times? Anybody else making records as weak as these would find them sinking without a trace. Absolutely tedious noodlings on a great set of tunes that he adds nothing to. The records deserve to be in the sale bin alongside David Krakauer and Bela Fleck.
Masada we all agree on, there's nothing much 'extra musical' going on there, other than perhaps the radical zionism he espouses. Controversial and prrovocative to many of the NY jazz crowd who follow Islam. I'd defend his right to take this stance, but once again it's something over and above 'just the music' that seems to be happening with Zorn.
That's why I think his value is as a mover and shaker - as I said before, an 'ideas man'. His music is nealry always interesting, but without the Zorn persona and the 'extra musical' baggage, too much of his music just doesn't cut it.
I agree on Spillane and The Big Gundown, and think the first Cobra is also magnificent. To an extent some of the larger orchestral works sound a bit like novelty records at times, mixing genres with rapid jump cuts, but they clearly show a great mind at work.
He's important, for sure, but at the end of his career I think of all the hundreds of records he'll have released it'll look like a pretty meagre hit-rate when we tally up the out and out classics. That's where I think my comparison to William Parker is valid - you could say almost the exact opposite of his incredibly consistent recorded legacy, and rarely for 'extra musical' reasons. The differnece is Parker is less an iconoclastic ideas man, and more of a player/organiser/mentor.
Still, jazz needed Zorn at the time, and would be far worse off without him...
OK, so how about this. Zorn releases as much as he possibly can, Parker doesn't. Whatever that means, you'll have to ask them. I am reminded about something I heard the great Paul Bley say (or wrote, or I read it). He has hundreds and hundreds of recordings, studio and live, in his basement and when he needs an album, he can just go down and pick one if he doesn't want to record something new-but he HAS to record it so he can move on from that place, move forward musicially. Since Tzadik, Zorn CAN and probably DOES release most everything he does and probably feels similar to Bley. I would do the same thing if I were in his position.
Maybe it's that Zorn could be more selective (yeah, News for Lulu sucks, but Bill is great=) in what he releases, maybe he doesn't care? Maybe he likes it all? I have no idea. I am not suggesting that Zorn is often (how often depends on how much of his stuff you like)quantity over quality. Or am I?
I guess to me, I can relate to Zorn first because of how his music affects me, second because I am also a reactionary, etc. However, there are lots of people who are 'enfant terribles' that I think are just crap- at everything, including being 'enfant terribles'. So Fred, where you might say Zorn is less without the persona, I say he's nothing without the music, and I do think they are different things.
Ok come on now, Kevin, put up someone I can't stand. I can't do it, it will look like a plant...
G
We could always do Carla Bley???
Hahaha, man, I can't even be BOTHERED to say something bad about her....ugh. My entire comment on Carla is 'why does Steve Swallow keep playing with you?'
G
After catching her live at a festival a few years ago a decided that the less I know about her music the better!! This was backed up by listening to a few CDs somebody cruelly loaned me.
Maybe Carla was a bad idea?
Why did you go and listen to the CDs? Don't you know that 'Carla Bley' means 'don't even THINK of listening to this, it's rubbish'?
Ok, so who's next then?
By the way, I spent yesterday morning watching Naked City videos on Youtube and you're both crazy.
G
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